Nastasja Rojas Silva (San Cristóbal, Venezuela, 35 years old) is a Venezuelan academic who has been studying her country for 12 years from Colombia. A professor of human rights at the University of Javeriana, he felt “guilty” for leaving a nation in crisis and decided to dedicate a major part of his life to witnessing the abuses of Nicolás Maduro’s government in Colombia. With one foot in each country, the relevance of the bilateral relationship is different on each side of the border, he says. He contrasts the hope of the Gustavo Pedro administration to reestablish diplomatic relations with the apparent lack of interest on the other side. “Colombia needs Venezuela more than any other,” he said in an interview with EL PAÍS.
“I always felt like a pessimistic voice,” the educator says of her participation Venezuela challenge, a forum by PRISA Media (publishing company of EL PAÍS) for political, economic and social leaders to discuss the opportunities and challenges of reestablishing the bilateral relationship between Colombia and its main neighbor. “The Maduro regime is not going to be a reliable partner,” Rojas said at a forum organized at Torre Atrio in Bogotá’s financial center. His stance comes amid difficult times in Venezuela: Maduro last week backed away from democratizing electoral institutions and pushed back on the possibility of guaranteed elections in 2024.
listen How did you come to investigate your country from the Columbian Academy?
Answer I moved because of the security issue: Maracaibo (where I lived) became dangerous and I decided to do my master’s degree here while things stabilized. But in 2012 when I completed my Masters degree everything got very complicated. Time passed and I stayed, but with an internal conflict, part of the diaspora fight. I felt guilty for leaving Venezuela like I had abandoned a sinking ship. Maybe you can get away with studying something else, you can’t get away with studying political science.
B. You came before the ‘walkers’, your companions who came with the clothes they were wearing, in less privileged conditions. How did you experience that process?
R. They were different moments. When I arrived the Venezuelans treated us well and we were welcomed. But between 2013 and 2015 certain antagonisms began to emerge, with a more alarming discourse of one socioeconomic component as “good” Venezuela and another as “bad.” It broke me emotionally, and I was angry at Venezuela for discriminating against Colombia and expelling Venezuela. At the same time, I cannot deny that criminal organizations like Trent de Aragua have done a lot of damage.
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B. At the forum, he questioned what he sees as overconfidence in other team members by restoring diplomatic ties. Why is your balance so negative?
R. It is a completely asymmetric relationship. There has been a sense of economic momentum in Venezuela in recent years, but that is not true. Today, in a country that has reverted to a dollar, economic stagnation and inflation are rampant. Truly. How can we talk about trade when the other country is not competitive? There are fee differences and no real ability to make a bilateral transfer.
B. Many participants Venezuela challenge They criticized the negotiations between Bogotá and Caracas without including mayors and governors. What is an example of territorial dimension?
R. Táchira has stalled trade as people go to Cúcuta in Colombia to do their shopping and things cost half as much as in San Cristóbal. They benefit from the price, but at the same time feel that the national market is affected.
B. You also talked about the disparity in media headlines in the interest that other countries have. Venezuela doesn’t care about Colombia?
R. You don’t see that this is an important issue on the agenda. Maduro doesn’t talk much about Colombia, he sees the country as an opportunity for international legitimacy. Colombia opened the door to dialogue with other Latin American countries again, it now says: “I understand that Venezuela is not a democracy, but we have to live with them in dialogue.”
B. You commented in the debate that Venezuela is not interested in reopening consulates in Colombia.
R. Maduro sent an absentee envoy and did not reopen embassies because doing so would mean serving the entire Venezuelan people. It has huge costs, besides, it has to recognize and take responsibility for migration.
B. Why is Maduro not interested in other aspects beyond the law?
R. Venezuela being an OPEC country always has other allies [Organización de Países Exportadores de Petróleo]. Maduro’s main partners are Russia, China and Iran. It is negotiating with Iran to import gasoline because it cannot supply Venezuela. Colombia needs Venezuela the most, not the other way around.
B. Why is there so much interest in Colombia?
R. For two main reasons. Colombia needs a lot from Venezuela or Maduro because of negotiations with ELN guerrillas. [Ejército de Liberación Nacional], has been operating from there for many years. Plus, I think Pedro is trying to fill the void he left behind [Hugo] No one has yet filled Chavez’s regional leadership. He wants to be a mediator.
B. And beyond the government?
R. I don’t feel that Colombians have a common interest. Yes, in the border areas, people are very affected by immigration and trade issues.
B. But polls suggest that restoring ties is one of the most celebrated measures of the Petro government.
R. People share the view that diplomatic maneuvering has failed and ties must be restored. He feels that Columbia has led the way. But cities like Bogotá have seen no real change from reopening the border.
B. State Department Undersecretary Francisco Goy spoke at the debate about the change in migration flows in recent years, with Venezuelans crossing the Darien to reach the United States. How do you explain this new way?
R. I think there are two main reasons. First, human trafficking mafias are organized from prisons in Venezuela. They sell tour packages through Darién, as you do tour, He assured them of security and promised to allow them to enter the United States. The second reason was that foreign currencies, even Colombian pesos, were cheap in Venezuela. That’s why Colombia was so attractive… families sent someone to work and send money. But now everything is expensive and Columbia doesn’t serve you anymore. America only.
B. What did you say at the forum that the political component of migration cannot be ignored?
R. Venezuelans are on the move as the political and economic model has failed and displaced more than seven million people. There are people who have nothing to eat and are persecuted. This has affected not only economic sanctions but also public support. How do you allow the regime to torture a person in El Helicoid [un centro penitenciario]?
B. How do you rate Maduro’s reversal in the democratization of the National Electoral Council (CNE)?
R. Not that Venezuelans have 100% faith in the CNE, but it has opened a gap for a more transparent electoral process. I think Maduro is doing this to torpedo the primaries of the opposition, which needs to regain the confidence of the voters and stay together.
B. But doesn’t that hinder your relationship with the international community?
R. I think Maduro is sometimes eager to see what the reaction is. And the international community does nothing, at no cost.
B. What ideas do you get from this forum?
R. I really liked ANDI’s representative [gremio de los industriales] Remember that when the border was closed, Colombia learned many things: it sought other markets and improved its internal connectivity. Although you should bet on Venezuela, you should not make the mistake of depending again. It is more expensive to transport a product into the interior of Colombia than to export it. On the other hand, I agree with what Senator Paola Holguin of the Center for Democracy said about the Colombians still in Venezuela. Demands must resume to find out where they are, locate those detained and advocate for their human rights.
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